Curse

Edge Martinez · Jul 11, 2006, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miyamoto Tzu

but not everyone wants to switch their secondary to Mesmer in order to become a proficient touch buster.

I truly admire your retro position of thinking INSIDE THE BOX! Bluntly put, Diversion and Blackout are jokes for a good toucher. We can count too and we know a bit about the cast times, recharge times and durations of these two spells. Basically a ranger with a bow can annoy us to no end, but touchers who have refined the build and don't play the cookie cutter build posted on the internet have quite a few options. Some idiot is always in spell range with an enchantment active. Free health. Vampiric Gaze. Free health. We actively look for bows, and when we see them *gasp* we kite too, usually towards a control point with NPCs or those lovable Wammos fighting NPCs. Free health.

Through many trials and alot of error, my PvP character of choice is a Mesmer (I'd never take a toucher into serious PvP, even random arena. ABs only). I'm decent now, not as good as some of those folks I watch doing GvG (OMG, I'm a total noob! I read the internet AND watch GvG!). Here's my little hint on how my own Mesmer beats touchers when we test it in scrimmages. Illusion and Inspiration. Read through those skills and if it isn't apparent how they will own a toucher or even two or more, maybe try D&D online. Also, the same skills that would own a toucher would probably hurt most melee people and non healing casters alot more than your current build.

Finally, all the people calling it a noob build? Maybe noobs use it, but they use boon, IWAY and much more too. Only noobs will use it outside of ABs. I remember back when Prophecies went active and folks would get owned by friggin' Frozen Soil, so they'd bring it and end up costing their team the game. Idiocy can ruin anything, but the touch ranger is what it is... a great build for Alliance Battles. Maybe remember the point of ABs next time you design that tank or ele. Know what would scare me more than seeing 4 Ra/N's? Seeing 4 Mo/W's, or 4 Me/E, or 4 E/Me, or especially 4 W/E. Besides, 4 touchers not on comms isn't the greatest PUG IMHO. I like touch, warrior, assassin, monk.

Ristaron · Jul 11, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I MUST /sign

For the love of God... it's a brilliant build the first time someone comes up with the entire thing (not just spamming the skills)... and easily handled in one-on-one (in the middle of nowhere in 12 vs 12 maps when all there's left to do is kill him before he killes you)... but when I have four of them on me at a given time all PERFECT CLONES, I get pissed.
I stopped playing 12vs12 because, like HOH, it's mostly down to who can use a cookie-cutter build the best.

cagan · Jul 11, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Ristaron ... i put it to you that if you have 4 of pretty much ANYTHING focusing on killing you ... then you are pretty much screwed, you being alone isn't the fault of someone elses tactics.

selber · Jul 11, 2006, 07:06 AM // 07:06

The strength of the build is that this build is very very easy to play. You just can't do much wrong. Compare it with - let's say a Boonprot, - there will be a huge difference if a really good players is behind the keyboard or Mr. Fissure-Mending.

I don't know if Anet should care about such builds, but I would. Iway has shown before, what braindead-builds can cause to certain areas of PvP. Then again they have changed their attitude anyways. And of course, - if you nerf a very popular build and make it harder to play, then you always cause trouble.

Changing those 2 skills to spells is *not* the way to go (and I pretty much doubt they would ever think about this), because they would be totally useless. Giving them a little recharge - let's say 4s - would be a good decision.

Ole Man Bourbon · Jul 11, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Touch Rangers are really pretty easy to beat, as has been said.

Snare, Interrupt, Divert. Any of these will pretty much shut down a TR. Add in Degen or E-Denial and it's gravy.

Unlike stopping many other builds, there are many, many skills available to shut down a TR, and they're commonly-brought skills. And when a TR is shut down, he's REALLY shut down (ie can't do jack squat at all).

Jetdoc · Jul 11, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ole Man Bourbon

Unlike stopping many other builds, there are many, many skills available to shut down a TR, and they're commonly-brought skills.

Bingo. For those that complain about having to be a certain class (i.e. mesmer) to stop Touch Rangers, here's a quick list on how to use your current classes to do so...

Warrior - Any knockdown skill
Ranger - Interrupts, traps, ranged cripple, ranged degeneration
Necromancer - Degeneration, Spinal Shivers, Spiteful Spirit (to offset most of health gain)
Elementalist - Water hexes, Ward Against Foes, knockdowns
Mesmer - Degeneration, snares, diversion, edenial, etc...
Monks - You shouldn't attack any opponent anyways

Any ideas for Ritualists and Assassins?

Skuld · Jul 11, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

shocksin can zip in and kill it like THAT

rt - earthbinder, dissonence spirit

Ozric · Jul 11, 2006, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I posted some thoughts in that thread - I love the idea of a Mantra of Recovery/Diversion mesmer disabling the touch ranger,.....
Anyone used a water elementalist or a trapper to effectively combat touch rangers?

After just starting pvp play for the first time for me recently and seeing all the touchers about, my Ele converted to Water for AB to combat these nuisances. Shard Storm and Ice Spikes and just Ice Spear and the occasional Vapor Blade does the trick on a touchie caught without an adjacent body to feed on, but when a meleeer sees I've got one on the ropes and wants to join in on the fun then my dmg dealing is pretty much negated as the toucher sucks on the meleeer that came to help. End result is the toucher is still dead but it took all my energy to do it if they have someone to feed on standing there, so yeah I think that's a bit unbalanced. I'd rather be air spiking a more balanced build than creating a build to combat a very specific one myself. That said, it's still pretty fun goading a touchie to chase you out in the middle of nowhere and then snare and kill him slowly, hehe,...but you're not really helping the team cap flags that way.

Another kinda weird Ele build made specifically for harrassing touchies out in the open I played around with was Air/Water echoing Gust and bringing along Tenai'sPrison and Ice Prison,...must've been quite frustrating for the poor touch templaters, heh.

xnightmythx · Jul 11, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

You know what really is overpowered? A toucher in the hands of an expert. ( Like me ).

But those experts don't play TR's anymore, because people will think they're bad players.

The ones you see know, are the same copycats that used 55's and whammo earlier in the game. ( and some FOTM's too )

That is arrogant and ignorant all in one post. Congrats! In fact Why don't you tell us all some more about your 1337'nes and your originality!
What a moron. Yep guys nothing to worry about, after all according to the expert here only noobs play touch rangers now. On the plus side, with him out of the way there is no need for nerfing.

Anyways,
Thouch Rangers can be defeated like all other classes. Learn the counter build. Its very effective. See the Ranger section.

Chris Blackstar · Jul 11, 2006, 04:24 PM // 16:24

I am currently testing a build known as a touch assasin, given that sins have the ability to shadowstep and skill combinations to serverly weaken and or kill an opponent, adding touch skills to finish off the kill, I believe would work best.

Remember a sin is not a tank, but a opportunist killer, let the war weaken the opponent then shadowstep in for the kill, or cripple an opponent, then use a defence skill to teleport away, then re shadowstep in and use touch skills to finish off, the key is weapon switching and energy management, but with practice it can definatly have protental, given that sins and rangers armor class is the same and differfent at the same time.

Blackhawk · Jul 11, 2006, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

That is arrogant and ignorant all in one post. Congrats! In fact Why don't you tell us all some more about your 1337'nes and your originality!
What a moron. Yep guys nothing to worry about, after all according to the expert here only noobs play touch rangers now. On the plus side, with him out of the way there is no need for nerfing.

Anyways,
Thouch Rangers can be defeated like all other classes. Learn the counter build. Its very effective. See the Ranger section.

LOL couldn't have said that better myself

Esuna · Jul 11, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

I am currently testing a build known as a touch assasin, given that sins have the ability to shadowstep and skill combinations to serverly weaken and or kill an opponent, adding touch skills to finish off the kill, I believe would work best.

Remember a sin is not a tank, but a opportunist killer, let the war weaken the opponent then shadowstep in for the kill, or cripple an opponent, then use a defence skill to teleport away, then re shadowstep in and use touch skills to finish off, the key is weapon switching and energy management, but with practice it can definatly have protental, given that sins and rangers armor class is the same and differfent at the same time.

Yes, but the entire point of a touch RANGER is the fact that they can exploit expertise and spam vamp touch over and over like a mofo and also use the expertise stances for defense. If you're not gonna do that, then you just might as well just be called a blood spiker. You'll run into more energy problems than a touch ranger will, and also have weaker defenses besides teleport skills - which won't aid your durability, nor help you kill the opponent as quickly if your ass is getting owned all the time.

Evilsod · Jul 11, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

Any ideas for Ritualists and Assassins?

Do they use Whirling Defences or is it just Dodge/Zojuns? Don't remember.

If its just the latter i don't see why an assassin with the good ol cookie AoD, GPS, Horns, Falling, TF wouldn't kill it. With 7 degen and alot of distance between you and them they shouldn't last too long. My favourite assassin build recently been the AoD build w/ Blackout, a combo, a blackout and just attack and retreat when there skills recharge. So what your damage is sod all without skills, but its better than nothing if they can't heal. If your going as a fully organised team, Strength of Honour brings your damage up nicely.

Ristaron · Jul 11, 2006, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cagan

Ristaron ... i put it to you that if you have 4 of pretty much ANYTHING focusing on killing you ... then you are pretty much screwed, you being alone isn't the fault of someone elses tactics.

I put it right back to you with FOCUS on how I said they were CLONES. When a build becomes so cookie-cutter that every so-and-so and his dog can do it (and worse, DOES it), something needs to be done.

Seriously, I used to monk in Tombs for an air spiker team of friends from a bunch of different guilds. That build required timing, dynamic playstyle, and fast reflexes. The R/N Toucher is not only straightforward and limited in its efficiency, it's a SINGLE person strategy in a TEAM game.
If they nerfed the air spike, they had better damn well nerf these goddamn annoying touch rangers.

floplag · Jul 11, 2006, 07:26 PM // 19:26

any build can be countered .. the problem is that so many are so locked in on thier own builds, that the required changes to defeat them are resisted. its as bad as the cookie cutter mentality that spawns the over use of a once creative thought

i admire the process that comes up withthe builds and see how they fit together.. i despise those that leech it and over use itt to the point that whoever first posted it probably noi longer would want to even take credit for it

the problem is two fold.. over use of a build, and a lack of willingness to adjust to defeat it... which is worse ?

i think any build that gets overused like this is a target for the nerf bat as people arent seemingly smart enough to recognize a good thing and to use it in moderation, as opposed to fighting 12 TR in AB !

in Aspenwood you get the EoE bombers ... in HA you get IWAY.. in AB, you get TR. all are not difficult to defeat if you have the right skills or classes on your teams... but how many of you actually go out of your way for the mesmers ? or the other skills needed ? apparently, not enough

Phoenix Ex · Jul 11, 2006, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Why not just run a team of 4 snare-degen mesmer to counter the touchers? they are even great against warriors and assassins so you are not limited to countering touchers only. Hell just put some degen conditions on the touch rangers and then run like hell and watch them panic to find a target to heal themselves or plague touch. Oh wait...ppl refuse to run so I guess rangers are overpowered...

If anything is cookie cutter its the boon prot used by every damn top guilds and the shock warriors and ether prodigy-heal party ele.

Loomy · Jul 12, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

After much thought I've decided that touch rangers are, in certain circumstances, slightly unbalanced due to the lack of direct counters to the build. Touch rangers are basically high damage warriors without much utility because of lack of skill slots. And when you compare that high damage warrior without utility to a real high damage warrior without utility, you find that the touch ranger is mighty good in comparison.

- Energy denial is not effective. The build has built in energy regeneration and energy conservation via the expertise attribute.

- Stances that avoid attacks are not effective. Conditions that prevent damage are not effective. Stances, blind, and weakness all affect warriors but have no effect on touch rangers.

- Many of the hexes that work on warriors do not work on touch rangers. Hexes that slow attack speed, reduce damage, and make attacks hit do no damage.

- Running does not count as a "hard" counter. You can run from anyone, it's a counter to everyone, therefore it is omitted from this discussion. Same goes for "killing". Killing is not a counter.

- There is no Scourge Vampirism. Deep Wound does not affect Vampirism. The touch ranger has constant healing by virtue of nearly-uncounterable vampiric touch skills, and there is no way to negate the healing effects.

What can you do? Break their stance and out damage them. Snare them and damage them while they can't attack. Use Diversion hex.

Those "counters" aren't significant compared to the bible-sized list of warrior counters. And when you measure the damage output of a touch ranger against assorted warrior builds, you find that the touch ranger is comparable to high-tier warrior builds. Plus it heals itself.

So while the touch ranger isn't spectacularly unbalanced, it does have a lot going for it.

Weigh all the PVP types equally (don't trick yourself into thinking more people GVG than RA+TA+AB -- GVG players are just very loud) and you'll see that this build is effective in many situations in many PVP game types.

The effectiveness, versatility, and a lack of hard counters to the build have convinced me that touch rangers are PROBABLY just SLIGHTLY more powerful than they should be.

Mhelnos Smiting Bro · Jul 12, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

...Nerf rangers... jeeze are you kidding... finally something that can kill boon prot and be sucessful v other things... BOON PROT NEEDS TO BE NERFED FIRST... sure we all could run a mesmer and shutdown 1 boon prot then get owned by everything else... but no1 is gonna do that... its a waste of time... If you ask me its a darkhorse and no boon protters like it...

Kuja · Jul 12, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

If someone vampiric bites me that's an "attack" in my book.

Juicey Shake · Jul 12, 2006, 04:31 AM // 04:31

went on a 45 streak from RA today with my friend booning and.. touch is a joke.. [we had degen mes/war hate, me on enraged thumper, hammer war and my friend, as I said, booning]..

no snares or diversion, with 2 knockdowns each [his was some elite + irris, mine bash & irris]. Faced a few 2 touch ranger / 2 monk teams, a couple 3 touch /1 monk and 1 or 2 4 touch ranger teams.. flawlessed all of them.. it all comes down to knowing how to use the skills you have against them wisely..

irresistable blow > whirling defense woo